|
|
Post by theterrace on May 13, 2010 9:24:06 GMT -5
While I don't see the connection between MOVE and the war on terror -- other than terrorizing a neighborhood, it is fitting to reflect on the 25 year anniversary. MOVE was/is a horrendous movement, killing a PO and attempting to kill many more. Only thing worse was the police killing 5 innocent children.
Is interesting to view how authorities should handle such highly disruptive neighbors; balancing their rights with those of their neighborhood. And even how a somewhat similar, highly disruptive, frightening neighbor is handled within Audubon itself. Our own one-man mini MOVE.
|
|
|
|
Post by theterrace on May 13, 2010 9:28:59 GMT -5
"Everything we did in '78 was about saving the lives of the children. This time ['85], everything they did was designed around saving the lives of policemen and firemen. And any policeman or fireman who's afraid to die in the line of duty oughta become a beautician."
-- Ex-mayor Frank Rizzo commenting on the 5 children deaths three days after the '85 confrontation.
|
|
|
|
Post by vincegatto on May 13, 2010 11:57:26 GMT -5
While I don't see the connection between MOVE and the war on terror -- other than terrorizing a neighborhood, it is fitting to reflect on the 25 year anniversary. MOVE was/is a horrendous movement, killing a PO and attempting to kill many more. Only thing worse was the police killing 5 innocent children. Is interesting to view how authorities should handle such highly disruptive neighbors; balancing their rights with those of their neighborhood. And even how a somewhat similar, highly disruptive, frightening neighbor is handled within Audubon itself. Our own one-man mini MOVE. MOVE was an anti-social cult that had belief systems outside those of normal civilized society. They flaunted the law, lived in squalor and violated zoning and health ordinances to the degree that their neighbors were affected. (As an example, their kids roamed the neighborhood eating out of the neighbors garbage cans)While all of this was quite repulsive, it did not rise to the level that they should be slaughtered by the authorities. They became terrorists when they took up arms in defense of their beliefs and started killing cops who were trying to enforce society's laws. It was at that point that the use force was justified against them. The bottom line is that any group has to exist withing the norms of the society in which they live and they become terrorists when they begin to force their belief system on others, even if they think that they are protecting their own rights. In the 21st Century, we live in a country in which not everyone should be forced to live by the teachings of Islam regardless of what the Muslim extremists do to try to change worldwide society by believing their God has given them permission to kill the Infidels. At some point MOVE made a decision that it was alright to kill people to maintain their "back to nature" movement and belief system. In 1985 Rizzo made a decision to stop them before it escalated further. At some point Al-Qaeda made a similar decision that it was alright to drive Westerners from their holy lands by attacking and killing Westerners in their own homelands with terroristic attacks. |
|
|
|
Post by theterrace on May 13, 2010 12:58:34 GMT -5
In 1985 Rizzo made a decision to stop them before it escalated further. Rizzo's impact with MOVE is widely overblown and he had NOTHING to do with the 1985 confrontation. Mayor Rizzo in 1978 peacefully attempted to resolve the MOVE stand-off that was terrorizing a neighborhood and the welfare of children belonging to MOVE members. Mayor Rizzo worked for two years to peacefully resolve the situation, finally resorting to eviction -- the incident where officer Ramp was killed and the subsequent damaging photo depicting the beating of a MOVE member by police became iconic. Contrast this to 1985 were Mayor Goode bombed a MOVE home after only hours of stand-off negotiation and let a fire burn fully aware that five children were in the home with NONE of their biological parents. (And this after firing some 10,000 rounds into a home where five children were known to be held.) Rizzo appeared to be dismayed by this approach. whew. This is going to wake peppers up when he logs on. |
|
|
|
Post by vincegatto on May 13, 2010 14:18:48 GMT -5
In 1985 Rizzo made a decision to stop them before it escalated further. Rizzo's impact with MOVE is widely overblown and he had NOTHING to do with the 1985 confrontation. Mayor Rizzo in 1978 peacefully attempted to resolve the MOVE stand-off that was terrorizing a neighborhood and the welfare of children belonging to MOVE members. Mayor Rizzo worked for two years to peacefully resolve the situation, finally resorting to eviction -- the incident where officer Ramp was killed and the subsequent damaging photo depicting the beating of a MOVE member by police became iconic. Contrast this to 1985 were Mayor Goode bombed a MOVE home after only hours of stand-off negotiation and let a fire burn fully aware that five children were in the home with NONE of their biological parents. (And this after firing some 10,000 rounds into a home where five children were known to be held.) Rizzo appeared to be dismayed by this approach. whew. This is going to wake peppers up when he logs on. You are correct, Wilson Goode was Mayor in 1985. "The MOVE Commission investigating the events of May 13 was critical in its findings. "The plan to bomb the MOVE house was reckless, ill-conceived and hastily approved. Dropping a bomb on an occupied rowhouse was unconscionable and should have been rejected out of hand . . ." by the mayor, the managing director, the police commissioner, and the fire commissioner.
Charles W. Bowser, a member of the MOVE Commission, wrote separately that "Mayor Goode cannot be held responsible for the dark tragedy of May 13 for the worst reason of all: He was not leading when it counted the most."Rizzo was only part of the saga from 1978 - 1980. I should have said Goode, we have made Rizzo far too much of a folk hero.  |
|
|
|
Post by johnnypeppers on May 13, 2010 16:58:43 GMT -5
In 1985 Rizzo made a decision to stop them before it escalated further. Rizzo's impact with MOVE is widely overblown and he had NOTHING to do with the 1985 confrontation. Mayor Rizzo in 1978 peacefully attempted to resolve the MOVE stand-off that was terrorizing a neighborhood and the welfare of children belonging to MOVE members. Mayor Rizzo worked for two years to peacefully resolve the situation, finally resorting to eviction -- the incident where officer Ramp was killed and the subsequent damaging photo depicting the beating of a MOVE member by police became iconic. Contrast this to 1985 were Mayor Goode bombed a MOVE home after only hours of stand-off negotiation and let a fire burn fully aware that five children were in the home with NONE of their biological parents. (And this after firing some 10,000 rounds into a home where five children were known to be held.) Rizzo appeared to be dismayed by this approach. whew. This is going to wake peppers up when he logs on. Believe me I know all too well what happened that day in 85. Just to let you know the address of the MOVE compound was my badge number. It was my team that was directly across from the bunker, and one of my old partners was in the front bedroom and hearing these "pings". 22 cal from the bunker resulted in return of fire. There was another team in the house next to 6221, in the basement. They were responsible to place a shaped charge to allow entry into the basement. THIS WAS NOT a large charge...just enough to make a hole. Well the team were met with gunfire from fortified positions in the basement. As to the "bomb" there was flammable liquid on the roof that accelerated the flames. The object of the charge was to dislodge the over hanging bunker which was built with gun slots so as to have a view north and south on Osage. The PD and City tried to erect a crane in the adjacent street in an attempt to take the bunker down..crane couldn't reach...hence the device was dropped. As to rounds fired...so what...what would YOU do. As to the children, it appears MOVE is.. was no different than the Taliban using children as shields and propaganda...and you fell for it. John Graduate of the MOVE confrontation of 78 " I will never forget nor forgive,,,that's God's job" Justice for Officer Daniel Faulkner, murdered by MOVE groupie Justice for Officer James Ramp murdered by MOVE Justice for John Gilbride...murdered by M**** I suggest y'all read the Anti MOVE/Mumia blog by Tony Allen, a past associate of MOVE and if you post a response...have the BALLS to post your name |
|
Pasta
getting the hang of it
Posts: 46
|
Post by Pasta on May 13, 2010 22:40:23 GMT -5
Mr. Peppers,
I was not able to find that exact blog by Tony Allen. Would you; Sir, be kind enough to share with us the actual site?
I have had; throughout my life; gathered a great deal of respect for the men and women of the Philadelphia Police Department. I think you have gathered that through my previous posts. But this extends to all law enforcement.
When you posted this, I was not able to find this blog site; but, admittedly, I am not the most computer savvy person.
I respectfully ask that you to put the actual site on this site so that I might visit and view it.
I will post here what I privately confided in you; that is that I, as a private citizen of this great nation; personally thank you for the great pain and suffering you personally endured to keep everyday people like me safe and secure in our homes.
You have seen things, Sir, I hope to never see. You have endured things that are incomprehensible to most.
Again; thank you so much for what you have done.
With utmost respect,
Pasta
|
|
|
|
Post by johnnypeppers on May 14, 2010 6:58:30 GMT -5
Mr. Peppers, I was not able to find that exact blog by Tony Allen. Would you; Sir, be kind enough to share with us the actual site? I have had; throughout my life; gathered a great deal of respect for the men and women of the Philadelphia Police Department. I think you have gathered that through my previous posts. But this extends to all law enforcement. When you posted this, I was not able to find this blog site; but, admittedly, I am not the most computer savvy person. I respectfully ask that you to put the actual site on this site so that I might visit and view it. I will post here what I privately confided in you; that is that I, as a private citizen of this great nation; personally thank you for the great pain and suffering you personally endured to keep everyday people like me safe and secure in our homes. You have seen things, Sir, I hope to never see. You have endured things that are incomprehensible to most. Again; thank you so much for what you have done. With utmost respect, Pasta +Google this..Anti MOVE/Mumia blog, it will come up, then click on to open it |
|
|
|
Post by theterrace on May 14, 2010 9:57:05 GMT -5
As to rounds fired...so what...what would YOU do. As to the children, it appears MOVE is.. was no different than the Taliban using children as shields and propaganda...and you fell for it. There is no defending MOVE's actions. That out of the way, what would I want to do would depend heavily on whether I was being fired at or whether it was my young child in the home. Cooler heads should have prevailed and determined 10,000 rounds into a home over 90 minutes knowingly containing 5 children "hostages" because someone's plinking at you with a .22 a bit excessive. I'm a supporter of the PD. Would even go so far as to be in total agreement with the decision to knock the bunker off the roof with a controlled explosion. (My understanding is that high level command decision was compromised as it filtered down the chain to where the officer packing the device went overboard with c4.) But having a fire commissioner agree to stand-by and burn the occupants out -- 6 adults and 5 young (non-biological) children! -- sounds like some wild west nightmare. I understand the rank and file's thirst for revenge. The problem was with the mayor, managing director and police/fire heads. The commission got it right -- "Unconscionable." And the federal court jury -- excessive force, $1.5 million. Lastly, it'd be interesting to read Tyler explain the use of force in the current war. Would the US military target and intentionally bomb an enemy home where children are known to be present and held as hostages? I can only hope our kids and homes in America are granted the same protection as some foreign enemy position. |
|
|
|
Post by vincegatto on May 14, 2010 11:00:18 GMT -5
As to rounds fired...so what...what would YOU do. As to the children, it appears MOVE is.. was no different than the Taliban using children as shields and propaganda...and you fell for it. There is no defending MOVE's actions. That out of the way, what would I want to do would depend heavily on whether I was being fired at or whether it was my young child in the home. Cooler heads should have prevailed and determined 10,000 rounds into a home over 90 minutes knowingly containing 5 children "hostages" because someone's plinking at you with a .22 a bit excessive. I'm a supporter of the PD. Would even go so far as to be in total agreement with the decision to knock the bunker off the roof with a controlled explosion. (My understanding is that high level command decision was compromised as it filtered down the chain to where the officer packing the device went overboard with c4.) But having a fire commissioner agree to stand-by and burn the occupants out -- 6 adults and 5 young (non-biological) children! -- sounds like some wild west nightmare. I understand the rank and file's thirst for revenge. The problem was with the mayor, managing director and police/fire heads. The commission got it right -- "Unconscionable." And the federal court jury -- excessive force, $1.5 million. Lastly, it'd be interesting to read Tyler explain the use of force in the current war. Would the US military target and intentionally bomb an enemy home where children are known to be present and held as hostages? I can only hope our kids and homes in America are granted the same protection as some foreign enemy position. Of course, everyone should understand that it was the intention of the PD to knock out the bunker, not to burn down the house and the entire neighborhood, as well. It was a screw-up. The argument made at the time for not putting out the fire was that the firemen would come under fire from MOVE. And of course, the Military does not intentionally target Innocent civilians. When the military screws up and civilians (or friendly forces) are bombed, they call it "collateral damage". Stuff happens and it happens all the time in war. If you look at the Inquirer link that I posted, during the MOVE inquiry and hearings, two officers in the middle of things claimed they never fired a shot. Peppers, did you exchange gun fire with the MOVE members? |
|
|
|
Post by johnnypeppers on May 14, 2010 11:39:31 GMT -5
The article named 2 Officers, one of which was my old partner who happened to pull Birdie to safety. I retired from SWAT 3 months before the incident. My understanding is shots/return fire were directed at the bunker and and in the basement,,,I would have done the same. What gets me is many blame the Po Po for killing children and that is/was not the case. In my mind, the blame should be placed directly to John Africa and his adult group of fanatics who continue today. Monday morning quarterbacking seems to be the code word for this issue...even after 25 years.
"Unless you have walked a mile in my shoes..."
John
|
|
|
|
Post by vincegatto on May 14, 2010 15:24:23 GMT -5
The article which named 2 Officers, one of which was my old partner who happened to pull Birdie to safety. I retired from SWAT 3 months before the incident. My understanding is shots/return fire were directed at the bunker and and in the basement,,,I would have done the same. What gets me is many blame the Po Po for killing children and that is/was not the case. In my mind, the blame should be placed directly to John Africa and his adult group of fanatics who continue today. Monday morning quarterbacking seems to be the code word for this issue...even after 25 years. "Unless you have walked a mile in my shoes..." John Are you saying that you weren't actually at the MOVE incident? I thought from the conversation that we were getting a first hand report from an eyewitness. |
|
|
|
Post by johnnypeppers on May 14, 2010 16:25:57 GMT -5
The article which named 2 Officers, one of which was my old partner who happened to pull Birdie to safety. I retired from SWAT 3 months before the incident. My understanding is shots/return fire were directed at the bunker and and in the basement,,,I would have done the same. What gets me is many blame the Po Po for killing children and that is/was not the case. In my mind, the blame should be placed directly to John Africa and his adult group of fanatics who continue today. Monday morning quarterbacking seems to be the code word for this issue...even after 25 years. "Unless you have walked a mile in my shoes..." John Are you saying that you weren't actually at the MOVE incident? I thought from the conversation that we were getting a first hand report from an eyewitness. I was part of the MOVE incident in 78...up close and personal from a year before the confrontation until Aug,8th 1978 and I think you know that and I've not led anyone to believe otherwise. John |
|
|
|
Post by vincegatto on May 14, 2010 17:20:23 GMT -5
Are you saying that you weren't actually at the MOVE incident? I thought from the conversation that we were getting a first hand report from an eyewitness. I was part of the MOVE incident in 78...up close and personal from a year before the confrontation until Aug,8th 1978 and I think you know that and I've not led anyone to believe otherwise. John When you said: "...Believe me I know all too well what happened that day in 85. Just to let you know the address of the MOVE compound was my badge number. It was my team that was directly across from the bunker..."I was under the impression that you were there. No big deal it's clear now. One important thing to note, even if you were not there and a witness to the incident, you heard first hand reports from those on the scene. The rest of us only know what we read in the newspapers or heard from TV reporters. Your commentary has a better quality to it, both from the sources you quote and your expert knowledge of the police work in telling us this story. |
|
|
|
Post by johnnypeppers on May 14, 2010 19:43:01 GMT -5
Thanks Goomba...wat do you think of that site? |
|
