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Post by guest on Feb 26, 2010 12:22:36 GMT -5
More BS from this board's BS master. Camden student enrollment is down and they have good teacher to student ratios -- significantly above state averages (more teachers to students than AHS.) Even a moron can see that Camden's problem isn't student overcrowding but keeping students in school. And your approach is to steal their most motivated and further dump on the intercity school system so you can perhaps save a buck locally. Disgusting. Seems to me this forum isn't as much a place for the disgruntled to vent as to the suck-ups to kiss @ss. Well, while I am apologizing, let me make another correction. I said that Camden schools were overcrowded. I was wrong. The student teacher ratio in Audubon is 16:1 - the student ratio in Camden is 13:1. Assuming that 1 teacher = 1 classroom in Audubon there are 16 students in a classroom, in Camden only 13. Remarkably the student teacher ratio is Haddonfield is 17:1 in other words the classrooms in Haddonfield are more crowded than Audubon or Camden. I stand corrected. Uninvited Guest, you have it right, I am wrong and I look like the Village Idiot, shame on me for not doing my homework in advance of shooting off my mouth. So what is the difference between these 3 districts, besides the names, that make two successful and one not so successful?
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Post by scholar on Feb 26, 2010 12:42:58 GMT -5
Well, while I am apologizing, let me make another correction. I said that Camden schools were overcrowded. I was wrong. The student teacher ratio in Audubon is 16:1 - the student ratio in Camden is 13:1. Assuming that 1 teacher = 1 classroom in Audubon there are 16 students in a classroom, in Camden only 13. Remarkably the student teacher ratio is Haddonfield is 17:1 in other words the classrooms in Haddonfield are more crowded than Audubon or Camden. I stand corrected. Uninvited Guest, you have it right, I am wrong and I look like the Village Idiot, shame on me for not doing my homework in advance of shooting off my mouth. So what is the difference between these 3 districts, besides the names, that make two successful and one not so successful? It could mean that there is no relationship between class size and a student's ability to learn. Therefore, increasing class size and eliminating teachers is a way of controlling educational costs and saving taxpayer dollars. The new Governor announced cutbacks in State aid to schools and the local schools boards are scrambling to figure how to make that up. We may see larger class sizes by default and that could prove the theory one way, or the other.
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Post by vincegatto on Feb 26, 2010 13:04:44 GMT -5
So what is the difference between these 3 districts, besides the names, that make two successful and one not so successful? It could mean that there is no relationship between class size and a student's ability to learn. Therefore, increasing class size and eliminating teachers is a way of controlling educational costs and saving taxpayer dollars. The new Governor announced cutbacks in State aid to schools and the local schools boards are scrambling to figure how to make that up. We may see larger class sizes by default and that could prove the theory one way, or the other. While I have no expertise in the area of education, Scholar appears to be correct, "school boards are scrambling" for a fix. "Audubon Schools Super-intendent Don Borden said he was in a meeting with colleagues from other districts last week when the announcement was made that they should plan for a 15% state aid cut.
It was surreal, he said this week – not unlike the men seated around the conference table in the movie Armageddon who have just been told that there is an asteroid headed for the Earth and that there’s not much they can do about it...""..No areas, stressed Borden, are exempt from risk of cuts as the district struggles to figure out how to make up the difference. “We’re investigating every opportunity,” he said. On top of potential cuts, Borden said the board is looking at the possibility of asking for the maximum 4% tax hike allowed by state law.."www.theretrospect.com/default.asp?sourceid=&smenu=1&twindow=&mad=&sdetail=2284&wpage=1&skeyword=&sidate=&ccat=&ccatm=&restate=&restatus=&reoption=&retype=&repmin=&repmax=&rebed=&rebath=&subname=&pform=&sc=1155&hn=theretrospect&he=.comObviously, the option to raise taxes to the maximum has not been taken off the table. I'll go for the raising class size deal, sounds good to me.
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Post by alwaysright on Feb 27, 2010 11:11:43 GMT -5
Bottom line is most people in town do think that we don't require so administrative people in our schools. What ever happened to some of the students working in the office to help out instead of going to study hall? Our town people (tax payers) are double tasking at their jobs why can't our school employees? Our town people have gone years without raises to keep their Jobs, why can't our schools employees? - Sad, our school employees have turned into 'what is in it for me' instead of 'how can I help this child. AHS is excessively admin heavy; both in dollars and bodies. Cut a couple positions to save taxpayer dollars and actually improve student/teacher environment. in my experience they have tooooo much free time.
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Post by alwaysright on Feb 27, 2010 11:18:17 GMT -5
It was surreal, he said this week – not unlike the men seated around the conference table in the movie Armageddon who have just been told that there is an asteroid headed for the Earth and that there’s not much they can do about it..." [/i] [/quote] lol. spare me. Will this asteroid tumbling toward earth take out one admin position? No. always_right believes one could cut 15% and improve the school overnight. and i'm always right. Now some kid's programs may be facing cuts but rest assured; all administrators will be spared and continue their healthy raises. Brace for a nice tax increase to pay for it. again, always right because always_right knows.
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Post by vincegatto on Feb 27, 2010 12:01:13 GMT -5
Bottom line is most people in town do think that we don't require so administrative people in our schools. What ever happened to some of the students working in the office to help out instead of going to study hall? Our town people (tax payers) are double tasking at their jobs why can't our school employees? Our town people have gone years without raises to keep their Jobs, why can't our schools employees? - Sad, our school employees have turned into 'what is in it for me' instead of 'how can I help this child. AHS is excessively admin heavy; both in dollars and bodies. Cut a couple positions to save taxpayer dollars and actually improve student/teacher environment. in my experience they have tooooo much free time. I'm glad someone here feels that they are an expert in education. What positions ought to be cut, what are the job responsibilities of those positions and how would the tasks they do be done without them (or are the tasks themselves unnecessary?) By comparison, do other schools districts have equivalent positions or does our school district just make up unnecessary positions for administrators. Can you point to an administrative job title that is unique to Audubon that other schools don't have? Also with regard to "free time" what are they doing during this "free time". Are they taking time off and leaving their offices or are they just sitting at their desks, screwing off? Finally, could you list the positions of the Audubon administrators that you think are overpaid and put up equivalent positions in other school districts, so that we can compare. I'd like to see some more facts, since your statement is sort of general and you are "always right".
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Post by getreal on Mar 3, 2010 14:06:03 GMT -5
I'd like to see some more facts, since your statement is sort of general and you are "always right". id love to see facts but afraid its a waste. this board is led by the nose by our current school chief. i go to the meetings and read the minutes. its been years since BF left and there was even one voice that dared speak out of step. its the stepford board. nine nodding heads. except for taxpayers no adult employeed by school will suffer anything. it will be the kids and whatever programs get hit and it wont be sports. aud is what it is. teachers are good but you will never see a ground swell of interested parents stepping up to change and move district beyond mediocrity. towns whose residents value education have lively and spirted school elections. . . not here. not that there aren't some excellent motivated teachers, but when you view the building as a local rice bowl and money tree all will come into focus. dont kid yourself, the system is all about adults and their paycheck not kids. the system needs competition but they'll fight parental choice and a threat to the rice bowl to the bitter end.
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Post by Change Agent on Mar 3, 2010 15:16:34 GMT -5
I'd like to see some more facts, since your statement is sort of general and you are "always right". id love to see facts but afraid its a waste. this board is led by the nose by our current school chief. i go to the meetings and read the minutes. its been years since BF left and there was even one voice that dared speak out of step. its the stepford board. nine nodding heads. except for taxpayers no adult employeed by school will suffer anything. it will be the kids and whatever programs get hit and it wont be sports. aud is what it is. teachers are good but you will never see a ground swell of interested parents stepping up to change and move district beyond mediocrity. towns whose residents value education have lively and spirted school elections. . . not here. not that there aren't some excellent motivated teachers, but when you view the building as a local rice bowl and money tree all will come into focus. dont kid yourself, the system is all about adults and their paycheck not kids. the system needs competition but they'll fight parental choice and a threat to the rice bowl to the bitter end. Since the merger of Audubon and Audubon Park schools districts residents of Audubon Park can run for the board. A large voting block of out of town residents awaits, look for change.
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Post by vincegatto on Mar 3, 2010 15:33:02 GMT -5
I'd like to see some more facts, since your statement is sort of general and you are "always right". id love to see facts but afraid its a waste. this board is led by the nose by our current school chief. i go to the meetings and read the minutes. its been years since BF left and there was even one voice that dared speak out of step. its the stepford board. nine nodding heads. except for taxpayers no adult employeed by school will suffer anything. it will be the kids and whatever programs get hit and it wont be sports. aud is what it is. teachers are good but you will never see a ground swell of interested parents stepping up to change and move district beyond mediocrity. towns whose residents value education have lively and spirted school elections. . . not here. not that there aren't some excellent motivated teachers, but when you view the building as a local rice bowl and money tree all will come into focus. dont kid yourself, the system is all about adults and their paycheck not kids. the system needs competition but they'll fight parental choice and a threat to the rice bowl to the bitter end. Rice bowl, my foot. What are you talking about. There is a 4% cap on budget increases and a 15% reduction in State aid. The budget is going to get cut, as well as programs and teachers. The school Chief and nodding board members are simply going to be left with choices of where to make cuts. Nobody is getting rich off your taxpayer money. Do you think that the school board is going to be able to pull money out their whazoo?
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Post by getreal on Mar 3, 2010 19:33:32 GMT -5
The budget is going to get cut, as well as programs and teachers. The school Chief and nodding board members are simply going to be left with choices of where to make cuts. . . . youd fit right in. focus right on programs and teachers. no where do you address admin where aud is most skewed. congrats on stumbling onto truth. AP has to go beggging to fill one slot without election. good luck getting change from there.
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Post by vincegatto on Mar 3, 2010 20:10:34 GMT -5
The budget is going to get cut, as well as programs and teachers. The school Chief and nodding board members are simply going to be left with choices of where to make cuts. . . . youd fit right in. focus right on programs and teachers. no where do you address admin where aud is most skewed. congrats on stumbling onto truth. AP has to go beggging to fill one slot without election. good luck getting change from there. First you need to define administrators. Are we talking assistant principals, secretaries or lunch room ladies here? What you need to do to support your argument is to compare the number of administrators in Audubon with the number in Haddon Township, Collingswood, Haddon heights and Haddonfield. You need to show that Audubon has proportionately more administrators per student than the other districts in the area. Yup, that's what you got to do to make your case, can't just babble on that we got too many. See you're just babbling, it's the board, people's personalities, sports - a whole bunch of crap that does not matter. What matters is the budget needs to be cut to accommodate the loss of State aid. You can't raise it, because there is a "cap of 4%". If you think getting rid of administrators is the solution, you have to put some facts and figures on the table. Now, if you think that the entire education system has too many administrators and personnel are paid too much, that's another issue. But that's not what you are saying. You are saying that the problem only exists in Audubon because we have an ineffectual BOE.
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Pasta
getting the hang of it
Posts: 46
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Post by Pasta on Mar 3, 2010 21:12:35 GMT -5
youd fit right in. focus right on programs and teachers. no where do you address admin where aud is most skewed. congrats on stumbling onto truth. AP has to go beggging to fill one slot without election. good luck getting change from there. First you need to define administrators. Are we talking assistant principals, secretaries or lunch room ladies here? What you need to do to support your argument is to compare the number of administrators in Audubon with the number in Haddon Township, Collingswood, Haddon heights and Haddonfield. You need to show that Audubon has proportionately more administrators per student than the other districts in the area. Yup, that's what you got to do to make your case, can't just babble on that we got too many. See you're just babbling, it's the board, people's personalities, sports - a whole bunch of crap that does not matter. What matters is the budget needs to be cut to accommodate the loss of State aid. You can't raise it, because there is a "cap of 4%". If you think getting rid of administrators is the solution, you have to put some facts and figures on the table. Now, if you think that the entire education system has too many administrators and personnel are paid too much, that's another issue. But that's not what you are saying. You are saying that the problem only exists in Audubon because we have an ineffectual BOE. Correct. Of course, I am no expert on these things, but I did learn that all of the school districts are regulated by the state. The state publishes the "cost per pupil" for several different areas with breakdowns for each district's cost per pupil for administration, maintenance, etc. It finally is all added together for a final total of cost per pupil. Tuition rates from towns like Haddonfield, etc., are based on that total. (Or so I have been told.) After reading this post, I started to look to see how Audubon compares to our surrounding neighbors in "administrative costs per pupil," and we do not seem to be out of line with the neighboring towns, or the state average. The thing I ask is this. Exactly what salaries are included to come up with this number? Do those administrative costs mean that the principals, board office secretaries, and secretaries at the local schools included? I am going to have to learn more; however, at least initially, it does appears to me that our town is not really way out of whack with our surrounding towns. They are right in there consistent with the others, lower than some. I also think that if the state is cutting us 15% in state aid, with the 4% cap; these people are going to have a hard time not cutting administrative costs when actual teachers' salaries are at stake. We shall see. Our board can't cut state mandated programs. Most of their budget is dictated by the state, so there is very little room for them to cut without violating state mandates.
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Post by getreal on Mar 6, 2010 11:00:23 GMT -5
After reading this post, I started to look to see how Audubon compares to our surrounding neighbors in "administrative costs per pupil," and we do not seem to be out of line with the neighboring towns, or the state average. Lol. Spin it but facts are facts. state 2009 report card shows getreal the real facts: aud has significantly more admins per student than state avg and they get paid more than state avg. Contrast this to teachers where the ratio of teachers to students is exactly to state avg while their pay is sig less than state avg. Now go to who sets this structure. Nodding heads indeed. residents can dig deeper to pay admin at the expense of kids teachers while the school continues to wallow in mediocrity. and with a planned solution of pulling out of town kids in to maintain pay structure. give me a break.
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Post by vincegatto on Mar 6, 2010 11:39:39 GMT -5
After reading this post, I started to look to see how Audubon compares to our surrounding neighbors in "administrative costs per pupil," and we do not seem to be out of line with the neighboring towns, or the state average. Lol. Spin it but facts are facts. state 2009 report card shows getreal the real facts: aud has significantly more admins per student than state avg and they get paid more than state avg. Contrast this to teachers where the ratio of teachers to students is exactly to state avg while their pay is sig less than state avg. Now go to who sets this structure. Nodding heads indeed. residents can dig deeper to pay admin at the expense of kids teachers while the school continues to wallow in mediocrity. and with a planned solution of pulling out of town kids in to maintain pay structure. give me a break. If you used this linked data: www.state.nj.us/education/guide/2009/k-12.pdfI think you read it @ss-backwards. The higher the number in the ratio means less administrators per student. For example, Audubon admins serve about 159 students per administrator. In Haddon Heights, admins only serve 123 students. Therefore Audubon has proportionately less admins than Heights. You might also note that the Audubon ratio is one of the highest in the State meaning that the ratio of admins proportionate to student population is one of the lowest. Some might interpret that data to conclude that we don't have enough admins and the ones that we do have are overworked. That's the way I read the chart. Correct me, if I am wrong and if you found other data that supports your contention, please show the link to it.
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Post by getreal on Mar 6, 2010 18:26:03 GMT -5
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