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Post by vincegatto on Jan 7, 2010 21:00:29 GMT -5
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Pasta
getting the hang of it
Posts: 46
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Post by Pasta on Jan 7, 2010 21:31:46 GMT -5
ForeverThere and Mr. Gatto; Kudos to Mr. Gatto, once again. The area that is now controlled by PSE&G, at least in the West Collingswood Heights Section was always alternately known as, "The Hinks," or "The Hinky Dinks." depending on whom you were speaking. It is the area behind what was the old Goodyear Store on the Black Horse Pike after crossing over from the Audubon Shopping Center. As a young kid, I can recall people referring to it as either. It would ultimately lead to the Starlite Theatre at Rt. 130 and Klemm Avenue. Do you remember that? Dirt bike and all other manner of outdoor activity happened there.
Mr. Gatto; do you remember the year when the PSE&G was in some sort of disagreement with with the shopping center management and posted signs "closing" the cutover? PSE&G ultimately relented; but, for a period of time, threatened the ultimate cut-off of passage between customers at the supermarket and the rest of the center. This area was the old "Haddonfield-Westville Cut-off" that they owned. Signs were placed all over the shopping center threatening that as of some date, access would no longer be permitted. Do you or ForeverThere remember that?
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Post by vincegatto on Jan 7, 2010 21:41:32 GMT -5
ForeverThere and Mr. Gatto; Kudos to Mr. Gatto, once again. The area that is now controlled by PSE&G, at least in the West Collingswood Heights Section was always alternately known as, "The Hinks," or "The Hinky Dinks." depending on whom you were speaking. It is the area behind what was the old Goodyear Store on the Black Horse Pike after crossing over from the Audubon Shopping Center. As a young kid, I can recall people referring to it as either. It would ultimately lead to the Starlite Theatre at Rt. 130 and Klemm Avenue. Do you remember that? Dirt bike and all other manner of outdoor activity happened there. Mr. Gatto; do you remember the year when the PSE&G was in some sort of disagreement with with the shopping center management and posted signs "closing" the cutover? PSE&G ultimately relented; but, for a period of time, threatened the ultimate cut-off of passage between customers at the supermarket and the rest of the center. This area was the old "Haddonfield-Westville Cut-off" that they owned. Signs were placed all over the shopping center threatening that as of some date, access would no longer be permitted. Do you or ForeverThere remember that? Who remembers when PSE&G had large metal poweline towers running through the Gully between the Pike and Haviland Ave. They have been torn down, but I believe the conrete footings are still there.
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Pasta
getting the hang of it
Posts: 46
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Post by Pasta on Jan 7, 2010 22:04:32 GMT -5
Mr. Gatto, believe it or not, I was driving past that location the other day, and I saw someone with a cell phone taking cell phone photos of that. I watched as he was lining up a shot. I believe at White Horse and Nicholson; a location I have been passing for many years, the very same footings you mention are there too. Did you ever see them? While at certain times during the year the area is flooded with water, there are those very same footings you mention are still there.
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Post by vincegatto on Jan 7, 2010 22:15:24 GMT -5
Mr. Gatto, believe it or not, I was driving past that location the other day, and I saw someone with a cell phone taking cell phone photos of that. I watched as he was lining up a shot. I believe at White Horse and Nicholson; a location I have been passing for many years, the very same footings you mention are there too. Did you ever see them? While at certain times during the year the area is flooded with water, there are those very same footings you mention are still there. "...In 1906, this highway was a grade crossing. Generally, the trackage would be located in a cut north of Nicholson Road in Audubon and on a fill south of that location. Bridges were constructed to permit the Atlantic City Railroad and the Clementon trolley car line to cross the new railroad north of the Audubon Station. ...
...In the 1960’s the Westville Cutoff right of way was sold to Public Service Electric & Gas Co. for a power transmission line. Even though most of the bridges and fills have been removed over the years, the right of way is still readily evident as it carries the power lines through the Camden suburbs..."www.prslhs.com/Don_Lee's_PRSLHS_Page.htm Did I see the footings? heck, I'm so old, I remember the metal towers.
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Post by vincegatto on Jan 7, 2010 22:28:45 GMT -5
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Pasta
getting the hang of it
Posts: 46
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Post by Pasta on Jan 7, 2010 23:04:15 GMT -5
Mr.Gatto; never one to "disappoint; with us his exacting research has done it once again. ForeverThere; have you any other questions? Mr. Gatto, as far as I am concerned, has filled in all the "blanks." Thank you, Mr. Gatto, for the time you spent researching this issue.
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Post by vincegatto on Jan 8, 2010 12:29:54 GMT -5
The Gully more info.... The Westville Cutoff
The Westville Cutoff was a planned 4.71 mile double track freight bypass of Camden from Westville to West Haddonfield, to be used for hazardous material and perishable traffic. Also, a new freight yard was to be located on the Pennsylvania Railroad Bridge line near the Delair Bridge in Pennsauken. Conceived as part of a Pennsylvania Railroad improvement program in 1905, and approved by the West Jersey & Seashore Railroad on January 26, 1906. Work began in the spring of 1906. The line would be grade crossing free with a fill to North of Nicholson Road and a deep cut to Haddonfield. By 1908 the right of way was complete with bridges to Crystal Lake Ave., with a short single track in place as far as Market St. in Gloucester City. The Panic of 1907 brought work to a temporary halt, with over $500,000 spent by the Pennsylvania Railroad. Work came to a complete halt in December 1908 with work along the line 70% completed, and was never resumed. The Pennsylvania Railroad used the right of way for a power line to tie to their West Jersey & Seashore Railroad third rail electric line to a cheaper Philadelphia Electric Company power source. This lasted from 1922 to 1949, and was used until the electric line shut down. The bridges and short track in Gloucester City (used to store cars for Campbell’s Soup), were removed in a 1942 World War II scrap drive. The right of way was sold to Public Service Electric and Gas as an emergency connection to Philadelphia Electric, and the fill removed from Gloucester City to North of Nicholson Road in 1955. Public Service Electric and Gas removed all lines and poles between White Horse Pike in Audubon and West Haddonfield in 1980. Most of the Cutoff is unused and can still be traced today. www.sjrail.com/wiki/index.php/West_Jersey_and_Seashore_RailroadHand drawn map of the Haddonfield/Westville cutoff www.sjrail.com/maps/Westville_Cutoff_DCH.pdfI guess the history of the Gully is more than meets the eye.
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Pasta
getting the hang of it
Posts: 46
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Post by Pasta on Jan 8, 2010 21:23:20 GMT -5
Mr. Gatto, your post lines up exactly with the elderly resident's explanation to me. Of course, after a century has passed, The Gully Story is difficult to discern with conclusive accuracy in all of the details, with definitive certainty. All any of us can really do now is collect all of the available information; sift through it; see what the accounts have in common and what they don't have in common, and ultimately come to our own conclusions. Thank you for taking the time to research this. I am inclined to believe that this elderly resident was right on target with his memory because of what you just posted. By the way, he told me what the "hazardous material" was. Did you ever find anything in your research that told you what it was? I did not say anything about it initially because I was not sure I believed it, and wanted to wait to see what panned out. Your post does validate what this man, very old, yet still possessing his complete faculties told me.
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Post by vincegatto on Jan 8, 2010 22:32:41 GMT -5
Mr. Gatto, your post lines up exactly with the elderly resident's explanation to me. Of course, after a century has passed, The Gully Story is difficult to discern with conclusive accuracy in all of the details, with definitive certainty. All any of us can really do now is collect all of the available information; sift through it; see what the accounts have in common and what they don't have in common, and ultimately come to our own conclusions. Thank you for taking the time to research this. I am inclined to believe that this elderly resident was right on target with his memory because of what you just posted. By the way, he told me what the "hazardous material" was. Did you ever find anything in your research that told you what it was? I did not say anything about it initially because I was not sure I believed it, and wanted to wait to see what panned out. Your post does validate what this man, very old, yet still possessing his complete faculties told me. All I knew about the Gully before I started the research was that it was an old, unfinished railroad bed and that it was also used by PSE&G for a power line right of way. It appears that there is a great deal of history documented and the "Westville cutoff" is quite well known to railroad enthusiasts and historians. I guess we all know about it to now. Exchanging information about local folklore and passing along factual news and information is a worthwhile use of a forum like this. Certainly better than anonymously slandering local politicians, public employees, business owners, passing around gossip and rumors and insulting other members of the community.
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Pasta
getting the hang of it
Posts: 46
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Post by Pasta on Jan 8, 2010 23:39:22 GMT -5
Well said, Mr. Gatto. What I have learned from you, Sir; from ForeverThere; and from mtephraimneighbor; (who started the thread) which underscores what you just said in your post. It is all about an exchange of information to find out who we are and how we got to where we are. As I have said before; you, Sir, research things well; and while your exacting research is sometimes discounted by others; it really isn't by those of us who want accurate information. As you mentioned; on a another thread, that is what this board is all about, to actually learn something. Please accept my personal thanks for the information you provided for this thread. I have learned something; and I have validated something that was told to me through your efforts.
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Post by VICTORCHARLIE on Jan 14, 2010 20:58:23 GMT -5
Mr. Gatto, your post lines up exactly with the elderly resident's explanation to me. Of course, after a century has passed, The Gully Story is difficult to discern with conclusive accuracy in all of the details, with definitive certainty. All any of us can really do now is collect all of the available information; sift through it; see what the accounts have in common and what they don't have in common, and ultimately come to our own conclusions. Thank you for taking the time to research this. I am inclined to believe that this elderly resident was right on target with his memory because of what you just posted. By the way, he told me what the "hazardous material" was. Did you ever find anything in your research that told you what it was? I did not say anything about it initially because I was not sure I believed it, and wanted to wait to see what panned out. Your post does validate what this man, very old, yet still possessing his complete faculties told me. All I knew about the Gully before I started the research was that it was an old, unfinished railroad bed and that it was also used by PSE&G for a power line right of way. It appears that there is a great deal of history documented and the "Westville cutoff" is quite well known to railroad enthusiasts and historians. I guess we all know about it to now. Exchanging information about local folklore and passing along factual news and information is a worthwhile use of a forum like this. Certainly better than anonymously slandering local politicians, public employees, business owners, passing around gossip and rumors and insulting other members of the community. As you know very well this is the same information I posted about 3 years ago.
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Post by vincegatto on Jan 14, 2010 21:09:25 GMT -5
All I knew about the Gully before I started the research was that it was an old, unfinished railroad bed and that it was also used by PSE&G for a power line right of way. It appears that there is a great deal of history documented and the "Westville cutoff" is quite well known to railroad enthusiasts and historians. I guess we all know about it to now. Exchanging information about local folklore and passing along factual news and information is a worthwhile use of a forum like this. Certainly better than anonymously slandering local politicians, public employees, business owners, passing around gossip and rumors and insulting other members of the community. As you know very well this is the same information I posted about 3 years ago. Funny, I know that you are a train buff - But, don't recall the depth of information that I posted as being on the board before. You want to be a little more specific as to what you had up. I think that everyone heard the gully was a railroad right of way from Haddonfield to somewhere -- that is what I believe you posted -- (and I believe you said it was to Gloucester City, not Westville) In the future, check the board more frequently and you will be able to contribute your knowledge to the discussion before the thread becomes history. Do you have anything to add to what I posted?
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Post by VICTORCHARLIE on Jan 15, 2010 9:29:32 GMT -5
It may have been called the Haddonfield - Westville line, but it physically was supposed run from Vernon Junction to the border area between Gloucester City and Brooklawn. Westville is a few more miles down the road across Big Timber Creek. Vernon Junction no longer exists,it was where the line from the Delair RR Bridge met the Haddonfield - Camden line. Check Google Earth, it's very easy to see.
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Post by vincegatto on Jan 15, 2010 10:29:46 GMT -5
It may have been called the Haddonfield - Westville line, but it physically was supposed run from Vernon Junction to the border area between Gloucester City and Brooklawn. Westville is a few more miles down the road across Big Timber Creek. Vernon Junction no longer exists,it was where the line from the Delair RR Bridge met the Haddonfield - Camden line. Check Google Earth, it's very easy to see. Here is some homework for you. According to the info that I posted, the cutoff was built to haul "hazardous" materials. The world's largest dynamite factory (owned by Dupont) was located in Gibbstown (Gloucester County) just southwest of Westville. (Were there existing tracks between Gibbstown and Westville in 1906?)See what you can find out about THE PROPOSED DYNAMITE EXPRESS going through the Audubon Gully. Keep in mind that in 1906 there were few or no houses on the East side of town (Orston) and that entire area of Audubon/Haddon twp. was farmland. One reason for a train to run below grade would be for a Gully to buffer any explosions. maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&safe=off&newwindow=1&q=gibbstown%20nj%20&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wlwww3.gendisasters.com/new-jersey/3518/gibbstown%2C-nj-powder-mill-explosion%2C-feb-1908This research is all yours to follow-up Choo Choo Charlie.
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